How Do You Deal With Die Fudgers?

[tiamot]

A question for DMs- do you have a specific way to handle players who lie about their die rolls?

We've got a person in our group that has the rest of us convinced that he's consistently lying about his die roll results. (We're using a d20 system where higher rolls are best.) We started getting suspicious when we began to notice that he rarely ever makes a low roll, rolls a critical failure, or ever fails any saves. Granted, some people are just lucky, but this guy is consistently claiming to get results in the mid twenties or higher even at low levels, and claims to roll a lot of natural 20s. It would seem, that such good results would be popping up more often among the rest of the players, which they're not. Furthermore, he tends to cup his die when he rolls so that no one can see them, and as soon as the die lands he snatches it up and holds it at an angle, acts like he's deliberating, and then announces his result. He also tends to use a clear die with barely visible white numbers, so that the roll isn't visible from any distance. We've got one player who says that he's pretty sure he saw the guy make a lower roll when he claimed to have made a higher one. However, no one is exactly sure.

At first, we just let things go. Unfortunately it's now becoming a problem. Other players are getting frustrated with the fact that his character never seems to fail at anything he does, which smacks of cheating. We're fairly certain that this guy isn't going to admit to the cheating, and is just going to try to pawn it off as having a set of die that 'just rolls well." We want to attempt to approach the situation delicately and not cause a disruptive stir. This guy is, overall, a good person and a good gamer. He's also a good friend.

In the current campaign, in which I'm helping as Co-DM, we've decided to start making the players keep a log of their character advancement, which we'll be keeping with us in a big binder. Characters are only at 3rd level so it shouldn't be too difficult to back track a bit and record the info for the previous levels. We're hoping that by keeping a character advancement log we can serve a few purposes. Namely we want to be able to cross check player skills with their proclaimed die rolls. Furthermore we want to use the log as a DM tool to be able to review character stats and abilities to better gage future encounters. Lastly, we feel that it would be useful for players who want to use versions of their characters in other games that are of alternate levels. With the log, leveling down for another game would be much easier. We're not too keen on the idea of making players leave their character sheets with us. Character sheets have always stayed with the player in the past and the group is used to and rather comfortable with this. So we figured the log system would work best.

My living room, where we game, is long and narrow and I only have a small coffee table. So we don't have the luxury of being able to game around a large dining table. Because of space, we all sit somewhat spread out, with the DMs more separated from the rest of the group so no one inadvertently peeks.

Up until this point, we haven't been forcing players to make their rolls out in plain sight. (In fact, no DM in our group does.) This is mainly because the majority of the group stays honest enough not to raise suspicion. I realize this is likely the root cause of the problem and we're going to start demanding that rolls be made on the table or on the floor out in the open. However, because of the layout of the room, we'll have to rely on other players to keep an eye on rolls that are too far from the DM to be easily viewed. Once we can confirm that the aforementioned player is indeed cheating, then we'll be forced to have a chat with him.

So, has any one else had problems with people who lie about their rolls, and how did you end up dealing with it?

[pdboddy]

If you can confirm that he is cheating, then you have "the chat": The dice are meant to generate random numbers, and that part of the challenge of a roleplaying game, and combat, is that sometimes your character fails. And it's in dealing with failure that character really shines. His cheating, while minor in the grand scheme of things, is frustrating for the other players who have been honest and forthright. If his character always succeeds, where's the challenge?

Don't do it as a group though, have one person (the GM works best) do it so that he doesn't feel like he's being ganged up on. If he's forced to be defensive, things will likely not turn out as best as possible.

If "the chat" does not work, have the GM fudge right back. If that player figures it out, and says something, then you can revisit "the chat", now that he has seen it from the other end of the stick.

If that doesn't work, better to ask him to leave than to have the rest of the group be constantly frustrated.

[Drohem]

Well, there are things you can do in varying degrees of ease.

One of the easiest ways to avoid this is to have the GM sit next to the person. Having the GM so close may alter his pattern of fudging the dice.

Another easy fix would be to rearrange the furniture so that it is more circular and someone is sitting fairly close to the fudger. Having another player so close may alter his pattern of fudging the dice.

Maybe you could see if someone in the group has a folding card table, or a couple. This way you could set up a 'standard' gaming table, and all rolls will then have to be made on the table in everyone's sight. Also, at a gaming table, other players will be in close proximity of the fudger, and this may alter his pattern of fudging the dice.

You talk to the other GMs in the group and institute a new House Rule where all rolls must be made in the open on a special surface or place. You could rule that all rolls must now be made on the coffee table.

These are fairly easy fixes that are non-confrontational, and I think that setting up the host room so that there is a table where the players have to sit next to each other may be the best option.

If these methods don't work, then I would take pdboddy's advice and have the 'chat' with the player, but one-on-one and not related to the session. If you are good friends, then you should be able to talk to the person without too much confrontation. Just let the person know that the others have noticed a pattern, and to avoid anyone bad feelings then the person should make all their future rolls out in the open where it can be seen by another player. If the person is not a cheater, then this should be no problem and could change the group dynamic back to fun time for everyone.

It sounds like this player is the type where they add up all the modifiers in their head each and every time they roll the dice. I fracking hate this type of gamer. Add up all the static bonuses for your actions and write it down on the character sheet. Sure, maybe you'll have to do a minor calculation with situational modifiers when you roll a die, but for the most part you should already have the modifier to a roll written down on your character sheet. This could also lend to the perception that a player is cheating. They keep adding another bonus to a die roll because they 'forget' this or that. This could begin to bother other players if it constantly happens because the other players begin to think that the fudging player may be adding 'extra' modifiers to their die rolls. I would also recommend that everyone write their total bonuses on their character sheets so that they don't have to go through the process of calculating their 'to hit' modifier every round of every fracking combat.

I think that keeping a log of character sheets at each level is great. I do all my character sheets electronically, so this is extremely easy. Every time a player levels up, I have him send me a copy of the new character and I just save it in a folder with the lower level versions. The reasons you stated for doing this are great.

[tiamot]

Hmm, that reminds me, this guy has the bad habit of not using character sheets. He likes to write up his character on a piece of notebook paper. Honestly, I have no clue as to why. I've printed off plenty of blanks and given them to him, and even offered to print out sheet for him and he either declines or just doesn't use the blanks. I HAVE seen that he does have a few characters actually on sheets, but its always a toss up. I *think* he has the character for the current game on a sheet, but have to admit I'm not 100% on that. Even though I'm the Co-DM I'm taking a more passive role in this game and focusing more on my own character. My status as Co-DM is more of a mentor role (which means I get to sit back like an old Master and rub my beard and whack my students with sticks, right? heh.) We've got a regular group member that is just now trying out his hand at running his own game and while I want to steer him in the right direction, I leave the decisions to him. I'm more of an advice person. Be that as it may, I still want to gather some resources and get some ideas from others which might be beneficial. Anyway, given this guys character sheet preferences, he could very well be adding stuff up in his head instead of pulling it from the sheet like you mentioned, Drohem. That was something I hadn't considered before. The 'Chat' will definitely be the last recourse, for the reasons we all alluded to. While I don't see this guy as being the type to completely freak out if such a talk has to occur, I agree fully that it should be done privately. I suppose I can look at this as having a silver lining because it gives my fledgling DM parter some experience in dealing with game issues as a DM.

For now, I think we're going to have to go with the open rolls. I'm currently working on a game room downstairs, but there's no telling when it'll be usable. I also think the idea of making open rolls a house rule in conjunction with the other DMs is a great idea. We've got a player who is willing to set up shop right next to this guy to keep an eye on him. As of yet, we're not sure how things will go since we've only done one session since we decided to start watching him. I will say though, with the other player right up this guy's bum, he seemed to roll more 'fairly.' I'll be sure to discuss the 'counter fudges' (that sounds so wrong.. ) with the main DM. Again, this will be a good learning experience.

At any rate, thanks for the input! I'm always open to more!

[pdboddy]

Hmm, that reminds me, this guy has the bad habit of not using character sheets. He likes to write up his character on a piece of notebook paper. Honestly, I have no clue as to why. I've printed off plenty of blanks and given them to him, and even offered to print out sheet for him and he either declines or just doesn't use the blanks. I HAVE seen that he does have a few characters actually on sheets, but its always a toss up. I *think* he has the character for the current game on a sheet, but have to admit I'm not 100% on that.

Well, as long as he has it written down in a manner that is easy to understand, it should be alright. If the GM cannot understand his charactersheet, whether its poor handwriting, or the information is scatted about in a haphazard manner, then as GM I'd hand him a blank charactersheet and ask him to fill it in for me. He can keep his handwritten one, but as GM, you need to know what your characters have in equipment, stats and powers. If he's keeping it in his head... I'd have him write it down.

These days I like using pdfs and printing off a nice, clean charactersheet. However, back when I first started, I liked writing it all down. It reinforced all the different pieces of information, and I always knew exactly where to look for any particular piece of information. To this day, I can still write out a 2nd edition AD&D charactersheet, a 1e/2e Shadowrun charactersheet and a Battletech mech readout.

[tiamot]

Those PDF print offs are gems indeed. Thus far there hasn't been much issue with his hand written sheets for the reason you mentioned. His handwriting isn't all that pleasant, but its readable. And this guy has been gaming for yeeeaaars, so I would *hope* he can grab the proper info from his sheet and knows the rules well enough. I think you're right, though, ensuring that all players at least have a clean copy of a character sheet from a PDF would be best. We're hoping this advancement logging will pan out for us and be a valuable DM tool so that no one can keep, or perhaps hide, anything in their head. My only concern with the logging is that it initially seems like a lot of work, at least from a player perspective. Yet at the same time I think the overall reasons for using it are more beneficial. Plus, the characters are all low level anyway. What's your take, can you foresee the logging being a good tool in the long run?

[Drohem]

I would recommend staying away from the GM dice fudging option because it sets up an 'us vs. them' dynamic between the GM and player; this never ends well.

I have no problem with handwritten character sheets, as long as they have all the necessary information on them in a coherent form. However, therein lies the issue of legibility and format.

Personally, I create any character sheet electronically in Notepad using my own format. I do this because it's convenient, legible, easy to update, and easy to send to a GM. Also, as pdboddy noted, it's in a format that I'm familiar with and can reference quickly in play.

However, if the player's handwritten sheet is not legible, then it's perfectly well within your writes as a GM to request that the player maintain a standard character sheet as well as their own personal handwritten sheet.

Another option that you might also exercise, in conjunction with the other options, is to create a new House Rule regarding character sheet storage between sessions. The GM of a particular game will maintain the character sheets between sessions. There are several valid reasons for this House Rule. This way there are no lost character sheets between sessions by players. So, there will be no more scenarios where the player has to re-create their character sheet from memory if lost. Also, the GM can review the characters' equipment, math, powers, etc. to be used in the creation of new adventures and campaign story lines.

[pdboddy]

I think that advancement logging is a good idea: If something needs to be retroactively adjusted, it is much easier to do so. It also serves as a way for the player to see where his experience has gone, it can give a better sense of accomplishment.

In the one Vampire: the Masquerade LARP I played in, we would write out a small form whenever we wanted to use experience. When it was approved, we were given a new printout of our charactersheet. Until it was approved, you ran around using your older sheet. All of it was kept in a small computer database, if you ever needed a new sheet (say, you lost your sheet for example), it was only a matter of printing one out. It was a lot of work keeping track of 100+ players, but for a normal gaming group, it is quite workable I think.

[Drohem]

What's your take, can you foresee the logging being a good tool in the long run?

I think that it's a great idea and good tool for both the players and GMs. It can turn out to be a pain if all done by handwriting, however, that's the price they pay for not maintaining a standard character sheet in the first place.

As a GM, you can check the numbers on a character sheet and compare then with previous level versions. Also, it helps you develop more tailored adventures and campaign story lines when you have the character sheets on file. Requesting a updated character sheet at each advancement (i.e. level) will also help to deter any fudging or cheating by players because they know that the GM is checking their numbers and math.

As a player, it helps me track the develop of the character; both from an overall general sense, and for tracking power and ability development. In addition, it also helps me to remember milestone moments in a character's career. Also, it helps me in writing character play notes, and tracking in-game as to when the character received certain items.

Overall, I've found it extremely beneficial as both a player and GM.

[pdboddy]

I would recommend staying away from the GM dice fudging option because it sets up an 'us vs. them' dynamic between the GM and player; this never ends well.

True, it can set up such a dynamic. However, as I stated, once you point out to the player in question that what he has experienced is a small portion of what the other players experience when he cheats, he should come around. And that as GM, you try to set up encounters and adventures where players can feel challenged, and get a bit of excitement from. If the GM has to cheat just to injure, scare, intimidate or impress the player's character, what's the point?

I still feel that having a chat with the player in an open manner is the best course of action. Do it out of game, face to face, one on one, so that they don't feel threatened or ganged up on.

[Drohem]

I still feel that having a chat with the player in an open manner is the best course of action. Do it out of game, face to face, one on one, so that they don't feel threatened or ganged up on.

I agree with having a chat with the player, especially if he's a friend. I would also do this in conjunction with several of the other options: re-arrange the play area, open dice rolls, and new character sheet maintenance and management.

[Paul Zoski]

I can't imagine a game where dice rolls aren't out in the open. I understand your gaming situation might make that difficult, but somehow this has to be incorporated into the solution. Get those dice rolls out where people can see them!

As for the character sheet issue, just insist on seeing a copy of his character records every now and then. I think it's pretty normal for a GM to stop play every so often with a "let me see your character sheet" directed at some player or another (usually followed by some secret rolls). It depends how much playing you're doing, but I'd say this happens at my gaming table about every other session (as part of normal play).

[Karasu]

I've not had that problem yet about fudging rolls.

Most rolls are central to the table, different color dice for different players, or single rollings at once/ roll areas each. So theres no hidden dice rolls, and thus no fudged numbers.

Even electronic rolling in chat systems for long distance games provide open and pretty indesputable rolls. Since the system pushes out the numbers its pretty fair, never had anyone feel it was worth time or effort to hack either.



That given though I have seen one person switch it up on me rather than outrightly lie or hide his roll.
A player used loaded dice once.
Switched his dice on him to end that problem... When the save versus X was allways against a 20 or so he got the hint. Didn't happen again. I dont think he'll be taking that route again.

[pdboddy]

A player used loaded dice once.
Switched his dice on him to end that problem... When the save versus X was allways against a 20 or so he got the hint. Didn't happen again. I dont think he'll be taking that route again.

Hehe, most people, I think, would react that way. They realize it's no fun to have the dice fudged against them, so they quit trying to fudge in their favour.

[Professor Tanhauser]

There is but one way to deal with people who cheat in RPGs.


EXTERMINATE! EXX TERR MINN ATEE!

[Justin Tyrell]

You could drop subtle hints. Have you seen the movie Maverick? Before the game, why not talk about the scene on the riverboat where the various card cheats are caught and thrown off the boat?

Introduce a new npc that's a card shark and have him fleece the players.

And if that fails, you could put in some stocks and get yourself a cat o'nine tails to enforce discipline.

[Masada]

No tricks are necessary. As part of the dramatic flare of roleplay... declare certain key rolls be made wide open and untouched by anyone. You can't do this for all rolls, but when the result is likely be critical make it public so all the players can "enjoy" the result. Do this for everyone, not just the fudger.

The other option is just just make the fudger challenges harder... the whole point of the game is to be challenging and dramatic. If the fudger isn't challenged, then up the difficulty of the rolls. Make him (and the other players) occasionally count off all their bonuses--especially during key rolls noted above.

Over the course of play it should become more and more obvious if the fudger is lucky or cheating (i.e. they seem only fail on the public rolls).

Another way to approach this is to make failed rolls as fun as successful ones. After all, the point of the game isn't to reward successes and punish failures--it is about having fun. Make the failures funny, or character building or interestingly dramatic. That might help encourage more honest as it will be just as fun to lose. This requires a great deal of GM finesse and will be highly specific to your group and the tempo of your game.

[Charke]

There are techniques for rolling a similar number on a d20 each time. You always place the die in your hand exactly the same way. Eventually you can learn to roll the same number each time with that die, or a number 1 pip away. I've seen it demonstrated but not especially well.

I do hate the folks who grab their die immediately after rolling it. We had one fellow who always did it, but he wasn't good with math. He was doing it so people would not calaculate his totals and tell him. His fall-down-and-die rate was so high, I figured he never cheated.

However I'm sure I've had cheaters at the table. I think they've been infrequent though. I'm more concerned about the min/maxers. Anytime I hear a result that is just too high to be possible, the result is a fail. Our one DM was tracking damage. He knew each player's maximum damage and one player kept exceeding that amount - his damage was reduced to zero. It never fixed the problem but it kept the game going. Often it's a problem with younger players. The adult players are simply more willing to lose, to take risks and accept failures when they come along.

Some players cheat because they feel they have no other control over the game. This can be epsecially prevalent where the DM has too tight a grip on the game. Serriously, I went home some evenings and had nightmares about needing to make a skill check (which fails at least 50% of the time) to go to the bathroom. I know all the rules, by heart, which allow me to roleplay without making die rolls. I use Take 10 and Take 20 and Refocus a lot and every time I use them it ticks the DM right off. I use full cover ("I look for 110% cover is a battle cry in our group") to avoid saving throws altogether. My favorite attack medium is fireball and other spells - here's the damage YOU roll the fricking saving throws!!!

I hate dice. Sure I love dice too but I roll a LOT of low numbers. I've been roleplaying for 15 years and I've pretty much consigned myself to going last in every encounter. Every now and then the dice are kind but I sure get plenty of low rolls. And a LOT of DM's are off the mindset that - anything under 10 - is a failure. I love skillchecks I can't fail but, again, that ticks off DMs.

Mark Charke

[tiamot]

Well, the main DM and I (for those who missed it, I'm just the more experienced advice giving Co-DM in this game!) Had a nice long chat. I let him know about making this thread and about having this great discussion with all of you here. Yeah, any of us here who have been running games long enough know that we're not tossing around anything new, but I have to say, from my own perspective I always find these sincere discussions to be most helpful. So, I brought up all the various points that were also brought up here in light of the situation, made my recommendations and let my little novice DM make the final call. (As I've mentioned before, I think it's some good and valuable experience for him to have to deal with such things.)

So, here's what we're going to do:

We're still going to go with the character advancement log, which will be kept in an organized three ring binder here at my place. All logging will be done here under my supervision. I've still got one player that I have to sit down with and assist in backlogging their 3rd level character, and to explain all the particulars to. Thus far, everyone else actually really likes the idea of using the advancement log. In case any one missed it: In previous posts I noted that one of the reasons for the log was to allow myself and the other DM to cross check rolls and make sure that everything was added up properly. The log will also serve the purpose of being a DM tool to assist in writing up encounters, and to be a permanent repository for characters should anyone need access to that character in the future, at any given level. The player I spoke with last night likes the log so much that she wants me to print some copies up for her so she can use the logging system for her own games when she runs. In short, the overall point is that we're forcing a bit of better organization and bookkeeping on the group that isn't too much of a hassle.

All die rolls will now be made completely out in the open on the coffee table. (Someday I'll get my gaming room downstairs finished! *sigh* ) No more snatch and grab die rolls. When discussing the open rolls on the table, the issue of rolls going off the table came up. I simply suggested that, well if it goes off the table then it doesn't count and just has to be re-rolled back on the table. The other DM wanted to try placing a large sheet of paper on the table and saying that all rolls must be on the paper to be valid. Might be tough to keep rolls on the paper, but I'm trying to allow him to make the decisions and learn by trial and error here. So, we'll give his roll on the paper idea a try. (I think it will likely end up being more of a pain than anything and we'll probably end up with the on the table-valid off the table-invalid system.)

I also grabbed the Init Cards from rpgnow and printed off a character card on a 4x6 notecard for each character. We've got most of them already filled out. They'll go right to the DM for use in encounters and will be kept with the character logs and will be used as a quick DM reference.

[Drohem]

Awsome

I am glad to hear that your discussions went well, and were constructive. I think that trying to contain all rolls on a single sheet of paper will be difficult, and probably will not work out. I would just re-roll any roll that went off the coffee table, as you suggested. However, like you said, let the GM give the paper as roll surface a shot and see how it pans out.

[pdboddy]

Cool, glad that it seems to be working out well for you. Good way to deal with the situation.

[tiamot]

Thanks again for all the input, everyone! I'll have to let you know how the rolling on the paper thing goes!

[BlackLiger]

I've had issues with this, so I tell my players "Do NOT pick up the dice after rolling. Wait until I have seen the roll and confirmed it before you touch that die again after rolling it!"

[Volcarthe]

i had a guy who got really good rolls with hard-to-see dice pretty often.
he got quite fed up with me squinting at his dice and then saying "you miss" or "you take full damage" and got a set that i could see from across the table.

as a DM, i barely use dice anyway (i roll them, i just don't use the results) because my story hinges on the players making it to the end (unless they royally screw up on their own).

as a player, i have a habit of rolling dice so i have to watch myself. often, what i'll do is have one set of attack/damage dice that i roll and leave alone for the next round and then fidget with my other dice.

[smokewolf]

I'm pretty hard with die cheaters. I usually give 1 in session warning against the first violation. The next one generally results in the death of their character and expulsion from the game. But I play with some pretty straight forward guys and have only had to be this harsh once.

[logan9a]

I just want to be clear -

Everyone was rolling their results secretly and not able to see other people's die when rolled?

And the player in question doesn't have his character down on an easy to follow character sheet?



Very interesting.

(How do you do it then Logan? If I can't see the die from across the table, they don't get to use that die. If they roll 'too well' they get to use a cup for rolling and a die selected by the GM. If they cheat, they are out. Life is too short to put up with cheaters. I don't have these sorts of problems with the skype group but I also have live groups.)

Yes, I've kicked folks out of a group for cheating. Better to lose one than have the rest become disgruntled, IMO.

[tiamot]

Well, I wouldn't say that EVERYONE was making secret die rolls. No one but the person mentioned above was making any point to hide any rolls, such as cupping the die, snatching it swiftly from the table, etc. The other players have done nothing to raise suspicion as far as cheating goes, therefore they're not watched as closely as a matter of course.

The player in question is coming over today, soon in fact. I've told him to bring his stuff for the game so we can get his character logged. The other PCs have all been logged and accounted for. At any rate, I'll get the chance to see if part of the problem was mathematical error and will be able to fix it if is the case.

[manodogs]

So how did things work out?

We had a particularly horrible player who literally did everything that makes a gamer a bad gamer - it was like he'd specifically gone through and read the "bad player" sections and thought everything they listed was a "cool" idea. He would fudge his dice rolls so badly that when everyone started calling him on it, he would literally grab the dice and say incredible things like, "It rolled on a piece of sand..." !!!

While this guy turned out to be a bad dude all the way around (a cheat, a liar, a thief...) and he was expelled, I don't think that's an appropriate approach in general. You have to try not to take things too seriously; it is supposed to be game, after all, and some people just don't have fun if they can't escape a nuclear blast by hiding in a fridge.

I always opt for more creative (read: smart-assed) approaches. For example, I busted this guy out the first time by saying, "Roll a natural 11 on a d10." Without missing a beat, the cat threw the die and announced he'd done it. It was hysterical! He started backpedaling and trying to explain how he had this bonus and that, etc., but the entire group was cracking on him at that point and it was so pointed that even he couldn't get mad about it.

He still never admitted it though, insisting he somehow rolled an 11 on a die that has only 10 sides...

[tiamot]

Well, he did end up having his character on a sheet. We got him logged with no issues, so now I have a very complete record of all of his statistics, with no errors. We're going to be trying a session today, so we'll have to see how the rest of it pans out.

[pdboddy]

Well, he did end up having his character on a sheet. We got him logged with no issues, so now I have a very complete record of all of his statistics, with no errors. We're going to be trying a session today, so we'll have to see how the rest of it pans out.

Sweet, what game are you playing again? d20? Any particular setting or a home made one?